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Talk:Sayo Yasuda
Isn't Yasu Battler, Jessica, George, Maria, and Ange's aunt/uncle and step-cousin. should that be added. Should Yasu's death in Requiem be included in the article when s/he is shot in the face by Kyrie :Yup. --[[User:DinoQueen13|'DQ13']] ~[[User talk:DinoQueen13| Did we change the world,]][[User_blog:DinoQueen13| or did the world change us?]] 19:05, January 7, 2012 (UTC) The main pic of this page is not Yasu it is actually the doll from the 2AM prank scene in Ep 7 Image I could either put the Shannon, Beatrice, and Kanon sprites together in one pic or I could put what Yasu looked like when s/he solved the epitath in Ep 7 where s/he had the appearance of Beato the Elder Lambda's Diary Was that Yasu, or was it Eva-Beatrice? If the anime was correct on this scene, Lambda was also the one that approved of Eva's ascension to Golden Witch. --[[User:DinoQueen13|'DQ13']] ~[[User_talk:DinoQueen13| Nothing amazing]][[User_blog:DinoQueen13| ever happens here]]. 18:46, April 13, 2012 (UTC) Yasu's gender identity I was revieving the End of the Golden Witch episode and I think Yasu's gender identity can be confirmed, he is a male. I observed this from the Nasuhi's conversation with Yasu as not only she believe the speaker to be male but she also refered to him as "man from 19 years ago". So I said (painfully) in blue that "Because Nasuhi has recieved and actually raise Yasu for one year after his birth, she must be aware of Yasu's gender identity and as she refer to him as "man" from 19 years ago, it is already conclude that Yasu/Nasuhi's child is male" Any objection? e22big First Natsuhi barely raised Yasu as she pushed her off a cliff very soon after reciveing her. Also though Natsuhi refers to Yasu as a man she also says she is unsure about weather it was a man or not. We have seen that Yasu is able to manipulate and change her voice which she could have been doing. Also she may have just wanted to mess with Natsuhi. Or a more popular theory is that Battler was the real caller after figuring out who Yasu really is and he had to make himself a male because he obviously could not imitate a girl. So the argument goes both ways and nothing can be stated as fact. AsukaHanyuYay 00:33, May 11, 2012 (UTC) Natsuhi said that she's unsure before the child revealed it's identity. After that Natsuhi seems to have no doubts about child's gender anymore(she doesn't suspect Erika once Genji says that she's a girl). And even if Natsuhi didn't know childs gender, how Yasu can know about it? Why she wasn't presenting herself as the child from 19 years ago? Why it needs to be a man? Battlers theory is a little wierd, because in the first call Natsuhi is unable to say wether it's male or female basing on the voice, while his voice is obviously masculine. - Anon33 05:17, May 11, 2012 (UTC) :I think it's reasonably obvious that Yasu was born male (for this and a bunch of other reasons -- not the least that Yasu's injury makes a lot more sense for a male), but I also think that the unreveal of Lion's gender was deliberate enough, and the evidence deliberately vague enough, that it's best to just leave it ambiguous. --RuriRuriRuri (talk) 05:36, July 7, 2014 (UTC) Land Is someone aware whether the rumors about the man from 19 years ago appearance in the Land are true or not? I've never heard of this rumor but it doesn't really matter since Land never came to be. Ryukushi07 did say that Land of the Golden Witch's plot was divided up and parts of it were put into other episodes. So most likely the idea for the man from 19 years ago was from land and it was recycled into End AsukaHanyuYay 18:10, May 19, 2012 (UTC) First appearance Wasn't Yasu's first appearance in Banquet after Beatrice's illusion was denied? I think it's especially evident in manga. - Anon33 19:48, June 13, 2012 (UTC) Name change Should we change all mentions of the name Yasu to Sayo since that is her confirmed name and we no longer really have to use the nickname given to her? DirkingtonStrider (talk) 00:30, April 18, 2014 (UTC) Maybe, but I think so many people are used to "Yasu" that it might bring misunderstandings. We can just use both as well. -Anon33 (talk) Where was this confirmed? 22:16, July 27, 2014 (UTC)Lucid Can you read the page, please? Both for Lion and Yasu. You can find answers there. -Anon33 (talk) 18:36, July 28, 2014 (UTC) Sex and Gender To avoid confusion, we should make sure that the distinction between Sex and Gender are made. Sex is something you're born with. Gender is your personal identity. So, in this case, Sayo's sex is male, but gender is female (except for Kanon and Lion). It is common practice to refer to a transgendered individual as whatever gender pronoun they are presenting as at that time, so the section where it is talking about Sayo being shot by Kyrie should change to female pronouns instead of male, as she is Beatrice and/or Sayo at that time, not Kanon/Lion. I'm assuming you mean on Kanon's page where we have the truth of Rokkenjima because I just changed that and also I'm not meaning to sound mean but it's not "transgendered individual" it's just transgender individual the -ed is unnessecary 18:59, April 24, 2014 (UTC) On this confusion of sex & gender, can we please list Sayo's gender as female? DMAB is not a gender, it is merely a way of denoting that someone was assigned male at birth. Also can we please move this page out of the 'androgynous' category and into the 'female' category? Alfabites (Talk) 17:53, August 7, 2014 (UTC) No, we can't. Sorry. It's a complicated issue on which people have different opinions and we can't satisfy everyone at the same time. Her profile only states "born male, raised female", nothing about gender really since it's up to interpretation. -Anon33 (talk) 18:08, August 7, 2014 (UTC) Stop trying to vandalise this wiki, please. Find something better to do. Our admins are trying hard not to offend anyone. By vandalising wiki you are making it less possible for us to take your claims seriously. Please consider that. I blocked pages while you were busy with my friend. Thanks for having fun with him and letting me do this.-Anon33 (talk) 00:05, August 8, 2014 (UTC) Can we unlock this page please? I see a lot of inaccurate information which in light of the manga I think needs to be changed to reflect it. No. This page can be attacked any moment. The content of the page was based on the novel. Confession manga has several differences which conflict with the novel, so at best we can make a seperate part for Confession manga. You can say what exactly you want to change/rewrite. 13:00, February 11, 2015 (UTC) About Sayo's gender/sex What is the argument behind the whole "Sayo is a male raised as a female" thing. There is nothing confirmed. As far as the manga says, Sayo is a girl who, due to the accident 19 years ago was unable to bear children. It was never stated that she was born male by any of the characters, incluiding Genji. They knew that the impossibility of bearing children would be hard for her, raising her as something she is not would be even crueler, and I don't think that any of the servants would do that to her. If she was supposed to be Beatrice embodied, then the logical answer is that she is indeed a she. Also, most of her personas are females. You can say that this is because she was raised as a female, and, therefore, she felt identified with that gender, but that's speculation, and the actual evidence shows otherwise. Also, in the manga she falls in love with Battler and George, while in the case of Jessica is more like Sayo is trying to please her with her Kanon persona because Jessica was nice to her. Even if she was raised female but born male, she would have retained her preference towards girls not boys. And about Natsuhi calling him "The man from 19 years ago", it has been confirmed that Battler was making the calls, since he, the parents, and Sayo were confabulated against Natsuhi. Finally, Ryukishi said that the manga is his final answer to Umineko, not the mangaka interpretation. You clearly know nothing about gender and sexual orientation. First of all, it was obvious since ever that Sayo was born a boy. As she is biologically a male, she doesn't grow breasts or menstruates. The cliff accident made her lose her male genitalia, and left scars. Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo thought she would be better as a woman because of all this. Although Sayo lived like a woman, she was still confused about her body. Still, her identity was more female (that's why we must treat her in feminine), and her love for Battler streightnened this because she learned that "boys like girls, and girls like boys". I think she hardly could know about homosexual people (she lived in an island, and could be ignorant about this). If she was to be a homosexual boy, and then turned in a girl, her sexual orientation wouldn't change. That doesn't exist... She could be bisexual too, but I also think the same about Kanon's love for Jessica. Rubião (talk) 16:14, March 14, 2015 (UTC) So Sayo is a gay boy who, fortunately, receive a natural pseudo-transoperation? Thus, making Battler and George gay? The Ushiromiya's are demented. I don't know how that would help the plot at all. However that's just a theory. Speculation. One can also create a theory about the breast and the menstruation stuff based on the accident. I just don't think that the manga implied that at all. I'm not trying to say that she is indeed a girl, but trying to say that there's not enough information to make a clear statement on that. Ignorance, once again... George and Battler are not homosexual because they like female personalities (Shannon and Beatrice); they like femininity. "Fortunately"? The accident and the "sex change" destroyed Sayo's life! This is more than clear in the plot, and in Confession of the Golden Witch. I believe Ryukishi07 made Sayo an example about what kind of suffering transexual people go through. It is a message about tolerance. By the way, my friend, Sayo's forced transexuality is what made her insane, thus culminating in her murder-suicide game. Yeah, that's very relevant to the plot. One more thing: being gay is not being demented... Rubião (talk) 03:59, March 15, 2015 (UTC) I just tried to say how convenient was the life of Sayo as you are describing it. It's too much of a Gambit Roulette for me. Sayo was a homosexual boy, who due to an accident was turned into a girl. What are the odds? Also, if that's the case, that would've been good for her since clearly Battler and George were straight and they wouldn't look at her if she was a boy. That tragic story would have been so much better making her a boy since the beginning. I'll say it again, being transexual doesn't serve of anything to the plot. She just can't have kids and that's the source of her disgrace. She doesn't even know that she is a boy, and because of that, that can't be the origin of the tragedy. Genitals play a huge role on the physical development. If Sayo (girl at birth) was castrated due to her accident that would explain her lack of breasts and menstruation. Sayo being a girl at birth is a clean explanation, while being male at birth is too Deus Ex Machina-ish. I recognize the theory of her being a male, but as I've been saying, the theory of her being a female is also plausible. I'm not trying to impose my opinion, just saying that there's not enough information to claim anything regarding that topic. It seems pretty clear that Sayo is a guy with no penis and testicles. Also large breasts seems to run in the Ushiromiya family (and from his grandmother and mother/sister) and since Sayo didn't grow any and is flat and that there is no indication of having any scars in the chest area other than the 6th toes in his feet, then shouldn't we just conclude that he is male? Plus Nanjo did say the damage was the fall was from the genital area, so even if Sayo was a girl, she should have grown titties at least. But nope, 19 years later still a flat chest. Yeah, this was more than clear even before manga's answers. But Umineko generated fans that love to deny evidences or obvious things. This discussion was pointless, just like with Rosatrice believers. I'm stopping here because: 1) Umineko is just a fiction and 2) I have a life Rubião (talk) 13:48, March 19, 2015 (UTC) I say the same. Umineko generated fans that love to deny evidences or obvious things. This discussion was pointless, just like with Rosatrice believers. I'm stopping here because: 1) Umineko is just a fiction and 2) I have a life I was able to ask Ryukishi07 about Yasu's gender status in an interview you can find here. He neither confirms nor denies whenn I asked if there were any intentional transgender themes to Yasu's story...so that is something. Worldendwitch (talk) 14:30, May 20, 2015 (UTC)Worldendwitch That's amazing World End Witch, I saw that interview and that is way I don't get where all this "He is confirmed to be a male" is coming from. The manga is completely ambiguous regarding to her gender. There is never stated that she was born a male. As you said, even Ryukishi refused to confirme or deny anything. He even called that theory a rumor. The truth about that is something that lies within the catbox, and is most certain that he won't give that away in the manga. I'm not saying she should be listed as a girl (even though that is my Golden Truth based on David Reimer's case), but to list her as a male at born is just plain arbitrary. Thank you very mucho, Worldend. 23:31, July 7, 2015 (UTC) Even if Yasu lost his male genitalia. He's still a guy. Identifying as the opposite one is just plain mental illness. 14:50, August 19, 2015 (UTC)Raz No one consider a generic disorder, such as Turner syndrome Not fan of transgender theory. 20:55, January 31, 2016 (UTC) I think there's significant cause to suspect Sayo was female at birth. According to Sayo's background on this wiki, it says Genji faked her death and placed her in the Fukuin house because he didn't want history to repeat itself with Kinzo making more incestuous advances towards his offspring. However, I don't recall anywhere in the story where it portrayed Kinzo as ambiguously bi (correct me if I'm wrong). Ergo, if Sayo was born male, there would likely be little need for such a precaution. The wound Wasn't it stated somewhere that the laceration occured on her abdomen? The first thing that comes to mind with a laceration on the abdomen and making the body such that "it cannot make children" is a girl, since the womb is around that area. That's strictly speaking about the novels tho, since the manga took a different route and explicitly stated Sayo was a boy(Not sure if that's completely canon or it was merely Editor's decisions, or just an alternative route on how it would have ended if Yasu was confirmed a boy). Or maybe, Ryukishi being Ryukishi just left it as open interpretation and didn't clarify on his/her gender so people can believe what they want, which is why he doesn't go into detail about the wound, even saying the genital area was damaged whether it was a boy or a girl the damage would have been pretty much the same, since the abdomen was also wounded, as a girl she couldn't have children and probably her organ didn't look normal, as a boy his organ wouldn't have worked correctly anymore, and the development of his/her body could just have been an undeveoped girl(And her organs being damaged and all she assumed she was originally a boy and such), Ryukishi probably left it ambiguous on purpose. Pmgbove (talk) 21:34, April 4, 2017 (UTC)Ryoshi Lion's School and other details An interesting bit I came close to by talking to my wife, Jessica's school is portrayed as an all girls school. Otherwise it wouldn't make much sense why Kanon receives so much attention. In a normal school where boys are a common occurrence it wouldn't have been odd for Jessica to like someone other than Kanon from before she met him. It's clear Jessica (as well as her classmates) have an immediate interest in Kanon since they first meet him just because he is a boy. Therefore I think that even though episode 2 never fully states this, we can assume Jessica's school to be an all-girls school. It also seems fitting that Natsuhi (the prideful, classy and sexist Natsuhi we know) would choose to place Jessica in an all-girls school. We are let known in Episode 7 that Lion attended the same school as Jessica, then, there's the butt-pinching (as a man even if I wanted I would never be able to get away with pinching my sister's butt and have it be normal), the fact Genji hid Sayo from Kinzo (he is clearly not gay nor bi) and the medical hardship that it would have been to reassign sex to a baby by a doctor that probably didn't know much of the procedure. A Vaginoplasty or a surgery to turn a penis to a vagina or to repair defects in a vagina is a very hard procedure to do. Particularly in the sex change scenario, they cut the penis, turn the skin inside out and then place it into the hole left making as though it was a vagina. Some issues can occur over time, such as hair growing inside the artificial vagina and it would require medical maintenance overtime to make sure it stays functioning as a vagina. I truly doubt Nanjo as a traditional doctor would know about this procedure, and even if he had heard about it, what are the chances that a doctor in 1967 in Japan (which to date is still pretty homophobic) would know and even learn about a sex change procedure and then proceed to apply a vaginoplasty in a baby less than a year old, while also saving her life? Just think about it for one second, to me the thought is utterly ridiculous. The manga also makes clear that the wound was around the genitals and lower abdomen, not just the genital area. Also, even if it was the genital area, a baby is so small and the placement of a woman's uterus is so close to the genitals that it could still have implied to have damaged the uterus and the ovaries beyond repair by Nanjo's limitations. Because of all this I strongly believe Sayo is and always was female. She was just a female with hormonal problems and missing functionality in her reproductive system. We also know if we assume Lion to be female that Lion was a pretty flat chested girl even without the accident. I don't have many reputable sources, but Turner's syndrome could be more likely with parent-child incest, just that Lion probably had it somewhat treated whereas Sayo was never treated and the accident hurt her even further... Cjimenezber (talk) 16:04, April 19, 2019 (UTC)